Pimp my SL again... Options

[Warmonger]

It's not important, I suppose. Just wanted to help get it perfect. Still seems a little wacky to me...

But all in all, excellent work!!

This post has been edited by Warmonger: Nov 13 2006, 12:21 PM

[assassinx]

hi all,

my first post here. And I have been following warmonger's thread about the little issue with this new ranking system. I have to COMPLETELY agree with Warmonger that the rating is somehow skewed.

I just finish playing a game where I had triple the kills of any other player in the game. By all means my SPM (12.67) is higher than anyone in the server for that game. Logged of and checked SL ranking, it is a whopping -0.17 . Some useless nub with 0.82 rating had a SPM of 6.51 had a ranking increase of 0.52. Tell me how the hell is this called fair?

IN addition to warmonger's post, here is something else interesting. A play who changed his name had a rating of -0.1 with a SPM of 7.39. At the end of the map he had a ranking increase of 0.59. Why the fkc did he take all that points away and I get stuck with a -0.17 on the ranking?

How is it fair that good players have to play twice as hard to go up? we might as well have different ranking list altogether. people wtih a ranking of 1 to 5 compete in 1 ladder, 6 to 10 compete in another, and so on and so forth.

According to the new ranking ELO system, if I understand correctly, a good player with double the rating would have to double the SPM just to break even. Triple the rating, and you have to do TRIPLE to break even. Given the property of the game, I dont think any player, no matter how good he or she is, can do triple or quadruple consistantly to move up. And how many times when you actually really do that good, almost every whiner in the server starts accusing you of cheating and vote you off. Yeah, real nice ELO system.

This new system is actually making people frustrated then excited at this moment in time. It is not fair that nubs get to move up quicker and good players are penalized. The system in itself is not fair. Those who aren't as good shouldn't move up. If they want to move up, they need to get better.

Points should be distributed as follows. Everyone's rating comes into a pot, at the end of the session, the person with the highest SPM should get the most points. PLayers with the least SPM gets the least amount of points. PLayers whose SPM is AVG of all player's SPM in the session gets o points. Players whose SPM is below all players' SPM get points taken away. TAHT is a fair system. We still pool everyone together, the points and the performance, set a bar, if you can hope over that bar, you get points, if you can't, you lose points.

Another frustrating phenomenon is that I play the full map, get more then double the SPM compared to all other players. I dont even get a + or -, just a pitch black ranking that near moved me up ro down. Now only me, but a few other players also get the same "pitch black" ranking treatment. to add salt to the wound, players wiht much worse performance are getting +0.1 and +0.2's. I mean, What the fudge?!!

Am I alone on this, if I am not, please chime in and let the good people of SL know that this system is NOT fair. It's like affirmative action which is another word for reverse discrimination.

DragonHeart

ps. thanks Warmonger for your enlightenment.

ps. I use to let some players have a shot at killing me just so I dont make them feel bad if I consistantly kill them. NOw I totally dont give a flying sh!t. I get into 5th gear and just crush any and every players I come across. I dunno by whom killing me is my ranking doing down and his going up so I dont cut anyone a break. U bet I will camp and shoot anyone that comes out of a choke point.

This post has been edited by assassinx: Nov 19 2006, 04:00 AM

[Warmonger]

As far as the pitch black sessions...you must actually be playing for at least 2/3 of the total time that the map runs on the server for that session to count for you. You can approximate the fraction of time by looking at how much green is in the little time bar. If your session has no flags AND no rating adjustment, you will probably see that your red time bar is less than 2/3 full of green.

But otherwise, yes. I DO believe the system is still screwed up. The reason is still simple:

A NEW player (that is, a player with NO ranking time) should not begin life with a rating of 0. This is simply ridiculous, and is absolutely NOT appropriate for a Elo system. That player should be assigned an INITIAL ranking which is the average of all players in the system. (The whole ladder, not the session). And Im not talking about the ranking used to calculate that session, Im speaking of his INITIAL LADDER RANKING.

Players should enter the system as a 12. Or a 10...Whatever the LADDERS average is. Then, until enough rating time is accumulated to deem that the new players rating is now relativiely accurate...his rating should NOT be used in the calculation of other players. For others, it should be as if he wasnt there. His ranking is still a provisional one. His ranking, however, should be adjusted normally, or 'weighted' (bigger changes) so that his rating will more quickly settle where it BELONGS.

This is until he accumulates enough ranking time. But NEVER should a 0 be used in ANY calculation. It is mathematically ridiculous, and no other Elo-based rating system Ive ever heard of begins new players at anything but an ESTIMATED AVERAGE RANK.

Sure, you're averaging everything...but your averages are populated with FALSE ZEROS. A zero is a real bummer to any average...not to mention 3, 4 or more zeros...and these render the entire system irrelevant to anything that could be considered accurate.

This post has been edited by Warmonger: Nov 19 2006, 10:36 AM

[assassinx]

Warmong puts it BEST. I just got off a map where I have nearly double the SPM of the avg SPM. 2 player changed name and both of them got +0.50, and I got a rewarding -0.12. those 2 players got +0.90 and +0.40. How the hell is that fair? they both have a rating of 0 and just screw up the whole scale. I dont think anything is FIXED. In fact, anyone who change name should be DROPPEd from the session calculation. ONLY players who entered and finished the map without changing name should be pooled together for calculation purposes.

What the f!_!ck.

DH

ps. eventually, people just wont care about the ladder anymore. (unless these 0 rating fckers get taken out of the averaging) Although the SL team has spent considerable time and effort on the new ranking system. I am affraid it's killing people who enjoy the ladder rather than making it more enjoyable.

This post has been edited by assassinx: Nov 19 2006, 08:47 AM

[sl.Proddi]

the problem of a public ladder is the new playernames every time. whatever u use, a initial rating or a initial session rating (we use this in advanced), the problem is the same.

[Warmonger]

Playerranks by server dont seem to be updating anymore.

the problem of a public ladder is the new playernames every time.

Only if you allow it to be a problem by putting those new players' ratings into the calculations of established players' ratings.

whatever u use, a initial rating or a initial session rating (we use this in advanced), the problem is the same.

This is why you SHOULDN'T include them until they HAVE a real rating (not an INITIAL rating of ANY KIND)...which is my entire point that keeps getting missed.

From the Elo wiki page (Your link, on the new system announcement post): "New players are assigned provisional ratings, which are adjusted more drastically than established ratings". Its what I have explained several times above.

That's standard for Elo systems, but you dont do this.

This post has been edited by Warmonger: Nov 20 2006, 02:02 PM

[ukbud]

im glad more peeps are realising this!!!!!!!!! thought i was alone wen i first mentioned it, its totally put me off watchin the ratings now cause its all bull sites only good for launching now as far as im concerned why mess with things that aint broke????????????? it may loook better and be faster but it aint right that for sure



reds reds reds gimme a valium ffs

[Warmonger]

Oh it's FAR better and fairer than it was, in fact...but there is now just this one, fatal flaw. Im afraid provisional ratings (A KEY component in Elo ratings) are not being used.

[assassinx]

alright, that's it. I officially quit caring about this ladder. Why? because the rating system awards shitty players getting a lucky panzer shot at me while if I kill him while he is charging (takes great aim and skill), I dont get shit. How is that fair? a player with no rank or low rank, getting killed by me and shoot me with panzer has a +0.25 while I outscored the rest of the server by almost double and I get a rating deduction.

No I dont think ELO is suitable for this game. Warmonger is right, ELO is only suitable for CONTROLLED pool of players. 1 on 1, not in some forever xpsave short spawn fast charging bullshit where people who dont deserve to have lvl 4 perks just abuse the shit out of them. Some rating 10 loser gets off a few panzer shots at me rating 25, at the end of the game, while my SPM almost doubled the avg SPM, I get a DECREASE in my rank. The panzer pussy get AWARDED. The only reason he killed me is because I was shooting some other enemies. How much SKILL does it take to shoot a panzer shot at an enemy that is not shooting at you? But because he is ranked lower and I am ranked higher, I get screwed?

This ladder does not reflect any kind of significant rank, thus I am gonna stop caring about it and will be ACTIVELY telling people NOT to care about it. That will be more fun than actually caring about if my rank went up or down.

It's a rank of "who can play on the fastest spawning, longest xpsaving, and fastest charging servers." This has nothing to do with skill.

Hope some of you wake up.

DH

[ukbud]

seems theres loads of peeps not happy total waste of time as assasinx says this website will be home to noobs and noobs alone any serios players will not even bother because its all bull,,

i used to visit this site religiosly evry mornin and night not any more wot good is a ladder that favours total noobs wot sort of ladder is this now??????? could it be irish by any chance ???????????????



any one know of any other ladders that are more accurate ????????????
surely this aint the only one ????????

This post has been edited by ukbud: Nov 23 2006, 04:43 PM

[hashleyplant]

IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT

[assassinx]

hi all,

I do not believe there are a lot og GENUINE nubs. This game is out for OVER 3 years. That's plenty of time to improve. Most of the people who suck either A dopnt want to improve or B) cannot improve beacuse they are 1st person shooter challenged. The system is broken if it is trying to rank player by "skill level". IT is NOT broken for people who just screw around wth adren+flame or professional tampon pussies.

In addition, why not have a standard of how servers should be set up in order to have SL calculate the results. You aint gonna get much points even if you are good wtih a standard 20/30 repsawn time versus a server wtih 8 sec respawn time. So, players get penalized if the server doesnt allow a lot of action.

In any case, I fail to see how the rank is relevant for anything. Maybe admins like to comment on this.

The ELO system applied here is REVERSE DISCRIMINATION.

DH

[Warmonger]

You aint gonna get much points even if you are good wtih a standard 20/30 repsawn time versus a server wtih 8 sec respawn time. So, players get penalized if the server doesnt allow a lot of action.

It's a rank of "who can play on the fastest spawning, longest xpsaving, and fastest charging servers." This has nothing to do with skill.

This is irrelevant, as you are only compared to people in the same server at the same time. This WAS an issue before, when you were happy...this is exactly the kind of thing that is FIXED now. Before, you were compared to the WHOLE LADDER using a flat SPM rate. So those differing spawntimes, and XPsave vs. non-XPsave DID make things lopsided. This is NO LONGER a problem...everyone is on the same level now, compared only to those playing under the same conditions.



Also, I don't believe being shitty and angry with the SL team will cause them to see your point of view. This will just make them ignore us.

By far, most of the point changes now are in fact EVENING THE PLAYING FIELD. If you are losing points ALL THE TIME, it is most likely that you were OVERRATED BEFORE. If you play XPsave, or those short spawntimes you mentioned...YOU WERE OVERRATED. Why? You were being compared to other players on other servers who did not HAVE these luxuries. They got screwed, you reaped the benefits. Now, things are even...

The only problem left is the problem of allowing unranked playernames to be included in a point pool that should be CLOSED. Basic Elo.

BUT this is not causing huge discrepancies all the time. Only small ones, and only when players (new or not) are using a new name. But the tendency here IS to suck points out of what should be a closed system.

The fact is, very few people are picking up ET for the first time...but people change their names like some people change their underwear. Allowing these new names in without assigning a provisional rating, and then adjusting it BEFORE those rating points are allowed into the pool destroys the integrity of the system.

This post has been edited by Warmonger: Nov 24 2006, 12:09 AM

[assassinx]

good points Warmonger, and I apologize to the SL team for my irrational outbreak.

these good people provided a place for all who play to come together and have fun. I shouldn't have bashed them because of a ranking issue. Again my apologies.

The issue of player changing name and screw the points distribution still exists, and I hope that it can be fixed.

DH

[fireatwell]

You aint gonna get much points even if you are good wtih a standard 20/30 repsawn time versus a server wtih 8 sec respawn time. So, players get penalized if the server doesnt allow a lot of action.

It's a rank of "who can play on the fastest spawning, longest xpsaving, and fastest charging servers." This has nothing to do with skill.

This is irrelevant, as you are only compared to people in the same server at the same time. This WAS an issue before, when you were happy...this is exactly the kind of thing that is FIXED now. Before, you were compared to the WHOLE LADDER using a flat SPM rate. So those differing spawntimes, and XPsave vs. non-XPsave DID make things lopsided. This is NO LONGER a problem...everyone is on the same level now, compared only to those playing under the same conditions.



Also, I don't believe being shitty and angry with the SL team will cause them to see your point of view. This will just make them ignore us.

By far, most of the point changes now are in fact EVENING THE PLAYING FIELD. If you are losing points ALL THE TIME, it is most likely that you were OVERRATED BEFORE. If you play XPsave, or those short spawntimes you mentioned...YOU WERE OVERRATED. Why? You were being compared to other players on other servers who did not HAVE these luxuries. They got screwed, you reaped the benefits. Now, things are even...

The only problem left is the problem of allowing unranked playernames to be included in a point pool that should be CLOSED. Basic Elo.

BUT this is not causing huge discrepancies all the time. Only small ones, and only when players (new or not) are using a new name. But the tendency here IS to suck points out of what should be a closed system.

The fact is, very few people are picking up ET for the first time...but people change their names like some people change their underwear. Allowing these new names in without assigning a provisional rating, and then adjusting it BEFORE those rating points are allowed into the pool destroys the integrity of the system.

i really need it just cant find it been everywhere still cant playit keep on freezing up got's to shut off my computer and reboot it up why is that redid everything from reinstallin etmain.exe and the new update punkbuster that too still the same need real help